The Economist: Detroit Finished

[George Macdonald]

On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:14:15 +0100, "Alexander S. Wood"
<alec_wood@dont.spam.me.ntlworld.com> wrote:
Yep, USA Cavalier is pretty much an Astra in fancy dress.

Hardly - they're completely different cars.
Not like that wonderful stalwart of the rep-world we enjoyed (endured?) overhere.It's not just the USA's motoring companies that let down their home marketthough. I've got a mate up the road running a grey-import business, mostlyJap off-roaders, L200 pickups, Pajeros etc and while the build quality ofthese is spot-on, the "bread and butter" cars fare much less well. Forexample, the trim fit and finish on the Mazda Eunos roadsters he brought inwas garbage compared to the MX-5 sold here, an identical car from the samecompany. Similar story with two big Honda's.

What? You're saying the build quality of the JP cars was inferior to the
UK built? That'd be a supreme irony, considering what happened to the
indigenous UK auto industry and the reasons thereof. Ohh... and which "big
Hondas"? Does Honda make any big cars in the U.K.? In the U.S. we get
both JP and UK builds of the CR-V - I haven't compared personally but I
haven't heard anything in the Honda NG to indicate a preference for the UK
one.
--Alec Wood M1BNKTeesside UKInterested in Ham Radio....have a look at www.ukradioamateur.org"Dori Schmetterling" <ng@nospam.co.uk> wrote in messagenews:3ef34d24$0$10624$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com... A little point of interest. There was a Cavalier in Europe, from Vauxhall(GB), the British sister of GM-owned Opel. This car was replacedby the Vauxhall and Opel Vectra, a size above the Astra. Maybe the USCavalier is smaller than the Vectra. Still, you point still stands -- --- NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling" --- "Elias Rocha" <eliasrd@morespam.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:%bGIa.484$Za.213496@nn1-lan0.avantel.net.mx... True, I can see the diference every day, with the sister´s chevycavalier and my astra, both cars are for the same segment (compact cars), andfrom the same company, but the astra has much better quality than thecavalier. Elias Rocha .............................

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

[Alexander S. Wood]

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
news:3ef54766.71255491@news.tellurian.com...
What? You're saying the build quality of the JP cars was inferior to the UK built? That'd be a supreme irony, considering what happened to the indigenous UK auto industry and the reasons thereof. Ohh... and which
"big Hondas"? Does Honda make any big cars in the U.K.? In the U.S. we get both JP and UK builds of the CR-V - I haven't compared personally but I haven't heard anything in the Honda NG to indicate a preference for the UK one.

No, what I'm saying is that the cars built for export by the Jap auto
industry are of superior build quality to those supplied to their domestic
market, I don't know where each and every one has been built. I see lots of
imports, not nearly as many UK cars. My mate Dave runs an import business
dealing in low-mileage second hand Jap cars. As a sort of second job, I do
any electrics and other remedial work required before sale. The 4x4's all
seem like top quality cars, but the "car" cars seem much less well screwed
together, less well aligned etc. Those I have seen sold new in this country
all seem to be of exemplary build quality.

There may be a good reason for this. Of the cars brought in as second-hand
imports here, the average mileage is less than 10,000Km (7,000 miles approx)
per year.Average mileage in the UK is about 12k/year, in the US probably
higher still. Maybe the cars in Japan lead a gentler life and don't need to
be so tightly screwed together. Maybe not, who knows?

Agree or not is up to you, I just say what I see, which at the moment is
only about a dozen "new" Jap imports a week. Maybe Dave's unlucky and just
buys the rubbish ones.

The big Honda here is the Legend, dunno what it's sold as in the US. "Big"
is a relative term you understand - here a 1600cc engine is pretty average,
which makes the Legend's 3L V6 pretty "big", over there you would probably
laugh if your lawnmower salesman offered you less than 2L (with a turbo).

Not just the Jap manufacturers either, you'll hear it said of many that they
neglect their home market - Indeed one of the earlier responders to this
thread levelled the same charge against the US auto industry, but we only
see the more outrageous end of the US auto production so I can't really
comment on that one.

--
Alec Wood M1BNK
Teesside UK

Interested in Ham Radio....have a look at www.ukradioamateur.org

[Alexander S. Wood]

"S.E.W" <reallysad@ford.com> wrote in message
news:VwKdnQDhZ_8bi2ujXTWJjQ@comcast.com... Honda Big car, the Honda Legend in the UK is the same as the Acura Legend-3.2L, and the Newer Acura RL-3.5L in the USA. Honda came up with a "New" division to market their "Upscale" cars in
North America...Smarts buggers..! Make more money whichever way they can.
Like Toyota did with Lexus. They were genuinely a breed apart from your
average Toyota though, can the same be said of Acura? We don't see them over
here - yet.

--
Alec Wood M1BNK
Teesside UK

Interested in Ham Radio....have a look at www.ukradioamateur.org

[C. E. White]

What makes you think Japanese Corporations operating in the US don't have to pay
income tax on their US earnings?

Regards,

Ed White

BenDover@mailcity.com wrote:
One thing the US government should do is level the playing field for domestics against imports, like the have in Europe. Japanese corporation should be made to pay US federal corporate income tax like do the domestic manufactures. mike hunt "S.E.W" wrote: Honda Big car, the Honda Legend in the UK is the same as the Acura Legend-3.2L, and the Newer Acura RL-3.5L in the USA. Honda came up with a "New" division to market their "Upscale" cars in North America...Smarts buggers..! Make more money whichever way they can. > Hondas"? Does Honda make any big cars in the U.K.? In the U.S. we get > both JP and UK builds of the CR-V - I haven't compared personally but I > haven't heard anything in the Honda NG to indicate a preference for the UK > one. > The big Honda here is the Legend, dunno what it's sold as in the US. "Big" is a relative term you understand - here a 1600cc engine is pretty average, which makes the Legend's 3L V6 pretty "big", over there you would probably laugh if your lawnmower salesman offered you less than 2L (with a turbo).

[Phil Sharkey]

Maybe the low milage Japanese cars that get to the U.K. do so because
the Japanese are no fools and would just assume get the Monday morning
lemons out of the country where they will no longer be their problem?
Just a thought.

Best,

Phil Sharkey

[fbloogyudsr]

"Phil Sharkey" <phsharkey@netscape.net> wrote Maybe the low milage Japanese cars that get to the U.K. do so because the Japanese are no fools and would just assume get the Monday morning lemons out of the country where they will no longer be their problem? Just a thought.

I do know that the inspection requirements for continued licensing of cars
in Japan is extremely onerous. It tends to make consumers there buy new
cars often rather than spend a lot on maintenance... Also, there are not
many
places to drive in Japan (nor would I want to drive there, especially in the
cities.)

Floyd

[George Macdonald]

On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:41:05 +0100, "Alexander S. Wood"
<alec_wood@dont.spam.me.ntlworld.com> wrote:
"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in messagenews:3ef54766.71255491@news.tellurian.com... What? You're saying the build quality of the JP cars was inferior to the UK built? That'd be a supreme irony, considering what happened to the indigenous UK auto industry and the reasons thereof. Ohh... and which"big Hondas"? Does Honda make any big cars in the U.K.? In the U.S. we get both JP and UK builds of the CR-V - I haven't compared personally but I haven't heard anything in the Honda NG to indicate a preference for the UK one.No, what I'm saying is that the cars built for export by the Jap autoindustry are of superior build quality to those supplied to their domesticmarket, I don't know where each and every one has been built. I see lots ofimports, not nearly as many UK cars. My mate Dave runs an import businessdealing in low-mileage second hand Jap cars. As a sort of second job, I doany electrics and other remedial work required before sale. The 4x4's allseem like top quality cars, but the "car" cars seem much less well screwedtogether, less well aligned etc. Those I have seen sold new in this countryall seem to be of exemplary build quality.

Interesting info - I hope all the potential grey import buyers in the UK
are reading your post.:-) I've seen where Honda UK was warning that many
of those were actually stolen, in Japan, for the "purpose".
There may be a good reason for this. Of the cars brought in as second-handimports here, the average mileage is less than 10,000Km (7,000 miles approx)per year.Average mileage in the UK is about 12k/year, in the US probablyhigher still. Maybe the cars in Japan lead a gentler life and don't need tobe so tightly screwed together. Maybe not, who knows?

I wonder if it could be that the cars which make it to the grey export from
Japan are "damaged goods" for whatever reason: refurbished salvage jobs,
owner-abused/fixed-up or as someone else suggested the odd lemon - IOW the
JP owner dumped it because he was pissed with it. Doesn't explain, of
course, why the SUVs seem to have better quality and possibly Dave would be
able to recognize a salvage job???
Agree or not is up to you, I just say what I see, which at the moment isonly about a dozen "new" Jap imports a week. Maybe Dave's unlucky and justbuys the rubbish ones.

I hear there's lots of this importing of JP 2nd hand cars to Australia and
especialy New Zealand. It'd be interesting to hear if they see a similar
pattern.
The big Honda here is the Legend, dunno what it's sold as in the US. "Big"is a relative term you understand - here a 1600cc engine is pretty average,which makes the Legend's 3L V6 pretty "big", over there you would probablylaugh if your lawnmower salesman offered you less than 2L (with a turbo).

The Legend used to be sold here as the Acura Legend and is now called the
Acura TL IIRC. More recently (1994 ?) Honda sells Accords with 3L V6s...
but we're not all grunt fans here.:-) Personally I preferred the 2.3L
4-cyl Accords and detest auto-trans. I even prefer push lawnmowers over
the self-propelled jobs - then again, manicured lawns don't interest me
either.:-)

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

[George Macdonald]

On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 17:14:34 -0700, "fbloogyudsr" <fbloogyudsr@nwlink.com>
wrote:
"Alexander S. Wood" <alec_wood@dont.spam.me.ntlworld.com> wrote "S.E.W" <reallysad@ford.com> wrote Honda Big car, the Honda Legend in the UK is the same as the Acura Legend-3.2L, and the Newer Acura RL-3.5L in the USA. Honda came up with a "New" division to market their "Upscale" cars in North America...Smarts buggers..! Make more money whichever way they can. Like Toyota did with Lexus. They were genuinely a breed apart from your average Toyota though, can the same be said of Acura? We don't see themover here - yet.You see some of the "Acura" cars over there in UK/Europe. For instance,the Acura TSX that is just going on sale over here in the US is actually theHonda Accord sold in every country but the US. The US's Accord isspecific to our market and is bigger than the "world" accord. I believethatthe Acura RSX is also sold in UK/Europe as a Honda.

The previous Integra was available intermittently in UK/Europe... I believe
in Type R form only latterly. AFAIK the new RSX/Integra has not made it to
Europe/UK yet. Honda seems to want to fill that slot with the UK produced
Civic Type R for the moment.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

[R. Anton Rave]

"Alexander S. Wood" <alec_wood@dont.spam.me.ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<7TlJa.777$gT6.142581@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>...
what I'm saying is that the cars built for export by the Jap autoindustry are of superior build quality to those supplied to theirdomestic market, I don't know where each and every one has beenbuilt. I see lots of imports, not nearly as many UK cars. My mateDave runs an import business dealing in low-mileage second handJap cars.
Not just the Jap manufacturers either, you'll hear it said of manythat they neglect their home market -

Generally, nations export what the do best and import what they do
worst, but it's false that the worst samples of any car model are kept
in the domestic market and the best exported because it's impractical
to sort them by quality (you don't rely upon inspections to check
quality). But Japan has made odd cars sold only in Japan because
nobody else would want them, some of them Suzukis.

[Dori Schmetterling]

Ever seen a Cappucino?

A two-seater that fits into a pocket, sold in the UK.

DAS
--
---
NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling"
---
"R. Anton Rave" <rantonrave@mail.com> wrote in message
news:2725e958.0306230111.2a575ad4@posting.google.com... "Alexander S. Wood" <alec_wood@dont.spam.me.ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:<7TlJa.777$gT6.142581@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>...what I'm saying is that the cars built for export by the Jap autoindustry are of superior build quality to those supplied to theirdomestic market, I don't know where each and every one has beenbuilt. I see lots of imports, not nearly as many UK cars. My mateDave runs an import business dealing in low-mileage second handJap cars.Not just the Jap manufacturers either, you'll hear it said of manythat they neglect their home market - Generally, nations export what the do best and import what they do worst, but it's false that the worst samples of any car model are kept in the domestic market and the best exported because it's impractical to sort them by quality (you don't rely upon inspections to check quality). But Japan has made odd cars sold only in Japan because nobody else would want them, some of them Suzukis.

[V.B. Mercon]

It is the Emission requirements that is nearly impossible to meet without
costly repairs that drive people to buy new cars in Japan, hence flooding
the low mileage used cars business. Those cars are still in pristine
conditions. I have seen they with my own eyes, and I dare say, some are
better than some "New" American cars. It is that quality that started the
export and have kept it going. Prior to that they used to dismantle and
recycle those cars.
"fbloogyudsr" <fbloogyudsr@nwlink.com> wrote in message
news:vfciiqhhsg02a2@corp.supernews.com... "Phil Sharkey" <phsharkey@netscape.net> wrote Maybe the low milage Japanese cars that get to the U.K. do so because the Japanese are no fools and would just assume get the Monday morning lemons out of the country where they will no longer be their problem? Just a thought. I do know that the inspection requirements for continued licensing of cars in Japan is extremely onerous. It tends to make consumers there buy new cars often rather than spend a lot on maintenance... Also, there are not many places to drive in Japan (nor would I want to drive there, especially in
the cities.) Floyd

[Juergen .]

Hi Dori,

Dori Schmetterling wrote: Ever seen a Cappucino? A two-seater that fits into a pocket, sold in the UK. DAS

Sale in Germany will begin this October -
with right-hand-drive, no LHD available!


Juergen

[S.E.W]

Honda Big car, the Honda Legend in the UK is the same as the Acura
Legend-3.2L, and the Newer Acura RL-3.5L in the USA.
Honda came up with a "New" division to market their "Upscale" cars in North
America...Smarts buggers..! Make more money whichever way they can.
Hondas"? Does Honda make any big cars in the U.K.? In the U.S. we get both JP and UK builds of the CR-V - I haven't compared personally but I haven't heard anything in the Honda NG to indicate a preference for the
UK one.
The big Honda here is the Legend, dunno what it's sold as in the US. "Big" is a relative term you understand - here a 1600cc engine is pretty
average, which makes the Legend's 3L V6 pretty "big", over there you would probably laugh if your lawnmower salesman offered you less than 2L (with a turbo).

[Manny]

"Alexander S. Wood" <alec_wood@dont.spam.me.ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<7TlJa.777$gT6.142581@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>...
No, what I'm saying is that the cars built for export by the Jap auto industry are of superior build quality to those supplied to their domestic market,

Japan produces some sorry models just for domestic consumption,
but when it comes to models that are virtually identical for all
world markets, can you explain how the Japanese separate the
superior ones from the inferior? Because if you can, then
you know something that not even the best auto maker does.

[Johnny Hageyama]

"V.B. Mercon" <transmission@ ford@fail> wrote in message news:<hQCdnQJnqu1cYmujXTWJhg@comcast.com>...
It is the Emission requirements that is nearly impossible to meet without costly repairs that drive people to buy new cars in Japan, hence flooding the low mileage used cars business.

The emissions requirements are no problem because they're
approximately the same as U.S. standards, and every car, regardless of
where it's to be sold, is designed to meet them for at least 50,000
miles because of U.S. requirements. It just wouldn't be economical to
make engines and fuel/emissions systems of different durability for
different nations.

The real reason Japanese cars are usually sold after three years is
because
Japanese government requires each car to receive a very thorough
inspection every three years that costs thousands of dollars.
Initially, this was done to increase sales of new cars to help the
Japanese auto industry lower its costs through higher volume so that
it could compete better against U.S. car makers. But now it's done
just to sell more cars and repairs.

[R. Anton Rave]

R. Makul K1XV <k1xv@arrl.net> wrote in message news:<b9mdfvgubfghp3ndt45uo6p2hd10hfnnmg@4ax.com>...
it's false that the worst samples of any car model are kept in thedomestic market and the best exported because it's impractical tosort them by quality (you don't rely upon inspections to checkquality).
True, if the cars coming out of Japan as used exported models arestatistically identical in quality to the cars not exported. But theused cars coming out of Japan, as I understand it, are cars that
wouldotherwise be subjected to rigorous inspections to be kept on the
road.Wouldn't it make sense then, that the used car industry would in someway cull out the cars for export that are more problematic, and keep,for the Japan domestic market, those less problematic?Also, wouldn't it make sense that a private Japanese car owner is
lesslikely to sell or trade in a car that is a good one, and more likelyto sell, or trade in, a car that is worse, thereby making the overallpool of used cars inferior to the average car produced?

I seriously doubt it works that way because used Japanese cars enjoy a
price permium overseas and in some markets even compete against
domestically produced brand new cars of poor quality. Also those
expensive inspections are required every few years for used cars as
well, which has got to depress their values in Japan, and the Japanese
people I've known don't like used merchandise - their trash cans are
known for containing a lot of almost-new merchandise in perfect
working order.

[George Macdonald]

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:25:25 -0400, "V.B. Mercon" <transmission@ ford@fail>
wrote:
It is the Emission requirements that is nearly impossible to meet withoutcostly repairs that drive people to buy new cars in Japan, hence floodingthe low mileage used cars business. Those cars are still in pristineconditions. I have seen they with my own eyes, and I dare say, some arebetter than some "New" American cars. It is that quality that started theexport and have kept it going. Prior to that they used to dismantle andrecycle those cars.

Are the JP emissions limits really that strict/low? Isn't it more a
mandatory policy of component replacement whether the system still tests OK
or not? In fact I got the impression that instead of testing they just
force expensive component replacement anyway. After all, our US cars run
for years and still pass emissions tests just by following recommended
maintenance.
"fbloogyudsr" <fbloogyudsr@nwlink.com> wrote in messagenews:vfciiqhhsg02a2@corp.supernews.com... "Phil Sharkey" <phsharkey@netscape.net> wrote Maybe the low milage Japanese cars that get to the U.K. do so because the Japanese are no fools and would just assume get the Monday morning lemons out of the country where they will no longer be their problem? Just a thought. I do know that the inspection requirements for continued licensing of cars in Japan is extremely onerous. It tends to make consumers there buy new cars often rather than spend a lot on maintenance... Also, there are not many places to drive in Japan (nor would I want to drive there, especially inthe cities.) Floyd

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

[George Macdonald]

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 02:26:19 +0200, "Juergen ." <jaguare@bigfoot.com>
wrote:
fbloogyudsr wrote: specific to our market and is bigger than the "world" accord. I believe that the Acura RSX is also sold in UK/Europe as a Honda.Yes, it is sold as Honda NSXhttp://www.honda.de/car/15113_337.htm

No the NSX is sold as the Acura NSX in the US. The RSX is the US name for
the new Integra. I dunno why the US Acura division felt they had to drop
the names and go with letter/number codes for their cars - compete with
BMW, M-B etc.?... kinda lame really. I guess some marketing genius will
pat himself on the back if sales go up and get sacked if they don't.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

[Ennui Society]

Hello,

I have seen the report where it is estimated about $2.000,— on the
average PER vehicle if they are engineered and built for US DOT. I shall
locate the report and post the further detail.

I wonder if we have legitmate case for World Trade Organisation about
the "repressive" US automotive market. Anyone care to register the
complaint with World Trade Organisation about "unfair trade barrier"?

It is also very easy for workers to overlook miniscule detail and fit
wrong parts or configure the models incorrectly. A guy from Volvo told
me about some of US-bound Volvos having ECE headlamps and taillamps
which must be changed before shipped to the sales centres. Audi has
those stickers, "USA", on its vehicles before they are processed and
prepared by the sales centres. Chrysler had to colour-coded its minivans
along the assembly line to designate them for left- or right-hand drive
edition.

I suspected that Chrysler built the separate assembly line initially
either to ensure the quality was up to European level until Chrysler
figured out better ways to enhance and retain quality control.

Oliver



R. Anton Rave wrote: Ennui Society <om@none.net> wrote in message news:<3EF730E0.7080803@none.net>...Japanese aren't the ones with that approach. The Americans do the samething, too. I've seen the North American vehicles manufacturered by GM,Chrysler, and Ford for export are much better in quality and finish thanthe same ones in the US/Canada markets.Chrysler once had a separate assembly line for export version of itsminivan in the late 1980s and early 1990s as to ensure the quality washigher and better. (I think it was probably to ensure the workers don'tmix up, fitting the DOT on ECE version and vice versa). That had to be a silly way to produce cars and probably added at least $100 to the cost of each vehicle. Keeping track of different versions of vehicles on a particular assembly line may not be trivial, but car makers have been doing it since the 1980s, even with entirely different models designed around different chassis.

[R. Anton Rave]

>Chrysler once had a separate assembly line for export version of itsminivan in the late 1980s and early 1990s as to ensure the qualitywas higher and better. (I think it was probably to ensure the workersdon't mix up, fitting the DOT on ECE version and vice versa).
That had to be a silly way to produce cars and probably added at
least$100 to the cost of each vehicle. Keeping track of different
versionsof vehicles on a particular assembly line may not be trivial, but
carmakers have been doing it since the 1980s, even with entirelydifferent models designed around different chassis.
I have seen the report where it is estimated about $2.000,— on theaverage PER vehicle if they are engineered and built for US DOT. I
shalllocate the report and post the further detail.

That may be the cost premium for US versions of the vehicles, but I'm
referring to the extra cost of building the versions on separate
production lines rather than on the same line.
I wonder if we have legitmate case for World Trade Organisation aboutthe "repressive" US automotive market. Anyone care to register thecomplaint with World Trade Organisation about "unfair trade barrier"?

I don't know about WTO, but NAFTA has issued decisions like that when
US or even California environmental laws prevented the sale of
Canadian or Mexican products here, one case being when California
wanted to ban the MTBE additive from all gasoline sold there, and the
only company making it was Canadian. NAFTA decisions are issued under
a provision called Chapter 11, by secret tribunals.