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  #41  
Old 08-17-2006, 12:41 AM
=?iso-8859-1?Q?mark=5Fdigital=A9?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?mark=5Fdigital=A9?= is offline
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"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:XeOdnSWIEr3jU37ZnZ2dnUVZ_o-dnZ2d@sedona.net...
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"Steve Pardoe" <steveSP@AMpardoes.com> wrote in message news:t8idnVYsd49Xu37ZRVnyuA@pipex.net...
Quote:
...but surely, surely, you see that all that energy came from the gasoline engine in the first place, which was my point? Sure, in a conventional car slowing / braking energy is wasted, but even with a Prius there is no free lunch.
That is true, but gasoline isn't used at constant efficiency. Idling is 0% efficient and moving slowly is scarcely any better... worse as the engine displacement increases. Hybridization allows the very low efficiency modes to be replaced by electricity generated when the engine is developing power and getting much better efficiency. In combination with allowing downsizing of the engine (the electric side determines the acceleration) that accounts for the tremendous increase in in-town efficiency and modest increase in open road efficiency of hybrids. Mike


In the old days the slightest downward movement of the gas peddle caused the
fuel injector to squirt extra raw fuel. I remember experimenting with
disconnecting it. There would be a momentary bog down as I tried to rev the
engine. With the hybrid the fuel accelerator is replaced by a momentary
boost from the electric motor. Another fuel savings is from the lack of a
mechanical linkage between accelerator peddle and engine.

The electric motor provides for an extended coasting (to a red light for
example) that if it weren't for the motor the car would come to a halt very
short of reaching the light. With a traditional power train anticipating a
red light up ahead by letting up on the gas peddle saves almost nothing.
Actually, it rather comical to watch people zoom right up to a light when
they knew it was red maybe 500 feet back or more.

Hybrids aren't for everyone. I dare say they are more suited for those of us
who need not show our emotions by the way we drive. You can't rev the
engine. You can't pass another car and make a lot of noise. These things
don't cut it in the Animal Kingdom where growling and snarling cars helps
people let off steam. So I guess if I have something to say, I step out of
the car. Amazing how the other driver's safe heaven now becomes their prison
while I lean on their hood and ask, " Do you have a problem?" Last time I
did that (guy was flashing his high beams on a 35 mph road) he nearly
crapped his pants. He denied flashing his lights.

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  #42  
Old 08-17-2006, 01:39 AM
Bob Wilson Bob Wilson is offline
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Default Question about MPG

Steve Pardoe <steveSP@AMpardoes.com> wrote:
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As we move down the road, the engine is only used when we exceed about 15 mph or the traction battery needs a charge. If there is a down slope and the engine is not yet running, the potential energy will be used either to increase speed or recharge the traction battery or both, recovering a portion of the energy used to climb the hill. It is not necessary to apply the brakes for this to occur. It is merely necessary to request less speed increase than the hill can provide. A gasoline only vehicle would still be consuming gasoline on this same route. The last two cars I've owned (one petrol / gasoline, one diesel) consume no fuel at all on the over-run (but I agree they are not conserving any energy while slowing down).
Quote:
When we reach a controlled intersection and come to a complete stop, the gasoline engine is turned off. All ancillary devices are run off the traction battery. Again, we aren't consuming gasoline to go nowhere.
Yes, although a diesel engine consumes a remarkably small amount when idling compared with a gasoline engine, since it can run very much leaner.


There is one other Prius operational mode not yet discussed called
Electric Vehicle (EV) or "stealth mode." At speeds below 42 mph, the
vehicle can operate on just the electric motor with the engine off. The
distance increases significantly at speeds below 30 mph. For example,
the last 1-2 miles into work or returning home, I take streets with
25-30 mph limits. This last mile is run with almost no gas consumption
unless I have to react to other traffic. This includes 2-4 m. rises,
which can be taken at 10 mph without the engine.

This EV mode is a unique to the stock Toyota and Ford hybrid systems.
Some models of Prius in Europe and Japan come with the EV button and in
the USA, there is an after market kit to fit an EV button. So, are any
other vehicles able to climb 2-4 m. without turning on the engine?

My 03 Prius has one well documented EV mode, reverse. In fact, even
cold, the engine can not run when I back out of my driveway. The reason
has to do with the planetary gears and engine. I can also climb steep
hills in reverse.

It is possible to use the EV capability to considerably extend the
"glide" part of "pulse and glide" driving. What this means is the speed
decay is countered by the EV so the hybrid vehicle 'glides' further than
an engine-off non-hybrid. For example, two vehicles starting at 40 mph
start a glide down to 30 mph. The non-hybrid will go about 1/2 mile
before reaching 30 mph and having to start the engine to speed back to
40 mph. The hybrid vehicle can stretch that energy-off glide to nearly a
mile using a small amount of electrical power. The pulse back to 40 mph
quickly add that energy back and you're back in glide again. But in the
meanwhile, the hybrid has gone a considerably further distance.

Hybrids are also designed for frequent engine off and on operation. This
means the start-engine fuel burn is extremely low and efficient. There
is no Bendix gear that has to reach out and engaged the flywheel but
effectively a directly connected motor that engages electronicly. This
minimizes starting friction losses and engine wear. Unlike traditional
12 VDC starter motors drawing a hundred or more amps, the hybrid motors
are 200-270 VAC motors drawing a few tens of amps. This lower current
minimizes the resistance losses and heat suffered by ordinary starter
motors.

Bob Wilson
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  #43  
Old 08-17-2006, 01:39 AM
Bob Wilson Bob Wilson is offline
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richard schumacher <no-spam@invalid.net> wrote:
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Clearly, there will be people (especially those who have bought Prius cars) who are very anxious to claim an optimistic figure. All I'm pointing out is that if you want really good fuel efficiency, we've been doing it in Europe with diesel cars such as the '3 litre' VW Lupo, for years. That's three litres per 100km which equates to about 94 mpg (imperial) or, say, 75 mpg (US gallon), and this is readily achievable even on long-distance driving. VW are bringing out even more economical models. In contrast, quoting from Wikipedia, "By the European method, the combined fuel economy of the Prius is 4.3 L/100 km or 55mpg (US)". How many of these get equal or better fuel economy while meeting SULEV emissions requirements? Prius was designed more to minimize emissions than to minimize fuel consumption.


Actually quite a few. One of the problems with an idling engine is the
drop in exhaust gas temperature cools the catalytic converter. When the
catalytic converter gets too cool, it doesn't work.

By turning off the engine, the catalytic converter remains at
operational temperatures, it isn't cooled by idling exhaust gas. This
keeps the emissions low.

Bob Wilson
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  #44  
Old 08-17-2006, 06:46 AM
Bill Bill is offline
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Default Question about MPG


"mark_digital©" <xxx976r@comcast.com> wrote in message
news:H42dnVbiqu0ltnnZnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
Quote:
Hybrids aren't for everyone. I dare say they are more suited for those of us who need not show our emotions by the way we drive. You can't rev the engine. You can't pass another car and make a lot of noise. These things don't cut it in the Animal Kingdom where growling and snarling cars helps people let off steam. So I guess if I have something to say, I step out of the car. Amazing how the other driver's safe heaven now becomes their prison while I lean on their hood and ask, " Do you have a problem?" Last time I did that (guy was flashing his high beams on a 35 mph road) he nearly crapped his pants. He denied flashing his lights.

Couldn't this be fixed with gas pedal controlled sound effects
switch-selectable between, say, Hog, Mac, & Titanic? :-)


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