I read their column about a month ago, and in it, someone had asked why
fuel economy hasn't gone up too much over the past 20 years. Tom and Ray
said that it was because automakers have focused more on
horsepower/performance than MPG's. I forget exactly how they put it. An
example they used was the Honda Accord. A mid 80's Accord made about 80-
90 HP and got about 30MPG. Today's Accord gets about 35MPG but puts out
160HP, double what it put our 20 years before. And Tom and Ray pointed
out that most people don't need 160HP in their car, and that most people
only use about half that power. They also said that most people would
probably prefer a 2006 Accord that puts out 100HP and gets 50-60mpg
rather than a 160HP car getting 35 mpg. I know I would. So in effect,
instead of engineering/tuning cars for MPG's, they've instead been tuned
for maximum HP/performance.

Why can't automakers develop 2 lines of engines? Super efficient 80-
100hp units to go into the Taurus, Accord, Camry, Malibu, etc. and cause
the cars to be able to get 50-60mpg. And then a line of perforamce
engines for these cars that put out 160hp and get 30mpg. Now, if you
look at cars, there isn't much difference in the performance between the
base 4 bangers and the optional V6 engines. The V6 will put out maybe
20-30HP more in power, and MPG's are usually about the same in the inline
4 and the V6.

I, for one, would rather cut my gas bill in half and have a 90hp engine
than have a 160hp engine.


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"Grappletech" <noone@yodoor.biz> wrote in message


Interesting concept, but I don't think it will sell until gas hits $5 a
gallon.

Sure, the latest round of prices put a small dent into Hummer and Navigator
sales, but the mid range cars are still selling and we still like to stomp
on the gas to get on the expressway. I just bought a new car. Did I
downsize to get better mileage? No. Within a few miles per gallon, it was
not even a consideration as to what I should buy.

I'd like to see what percentages of 4 and 6 cylinder engines sell in the
cars that offer both. Altima seems to be moving a fair amount of the 2.5
liter but my guess is that initial price of the vehicle is more of a
consideration than horsepower. The difference is about $3000. Same with the
Lucerne when I was considering them. The added $3k was more of a deterrent
than the 2 mpg difference. Having driven the V8, I'd have gone that way if
the initial price difference was much less.

I do know of one person that now drive 5 mph slower to get better mileage
from his F150 pickup though. He is the only one that does from what I can
see.

Grappletech wrote:

We have had similar discussions before. I am wondering, out of curiosity, do you
live in city, suburbia, or country and how much do you drive per day and what do
you drive now?
I live in Katy, Texas (west Houston suburb) and drive 25 miles one way towards
downtown to work every day (and 25 miles back) on the Katy Freeway (west I-10).
On a good day it takes me 45 minutes at 05:40 and 55 minutes at 18:00. I hate to
give up my 92 Grand Am - it gets 24 mpg city and 27 freeway and can still burn the
tires through an intersection but it has 196k on it now. Still does not use oil
between 5k changes.

I also follow VW newsgroups. Same history there of their line of vehicles.
Bigger engines, more horses, mpg hasn't really changed over two decades.
Dependability and VW factory maintenance contracts have though for the
worse.

Also another hurdle along the way in the last 2 decades is the EPA
requirements for exhaust gases.
--
Jonny
"Grappletech" <noone@yodoor.biz> wrote in message
news:Xns984DDC329C3A6nooneyodoorbiz@38.119.71.210. ..

Todays Accord is a much larger car, because that is what the American buyer
prefers to buy. Honda still makes a car, the size of the eighties Accord
that get 35 MPG. It is called the Civic.


mike hunt


"Grappletech" <noone@yodoor.biz> wrote in message
news:Xns984DDC329C3A6nooneyodoorbiz@38.119.71.210. ..

The Grand Marquis is still the best buy on the market today. Nothing else
in the 18K to 22K range brand new even comes close.


mike hunt


"« Paul »" <"=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul
=?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?="@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:451DE686.B7D3D476@houston.rr.com...

> Did I downsize to get better mileage? No. Within a few


Yeah, that's what I'm saying. The difference in mpg is so negligable that
it makes sense to buy the bigger car. Most every car is putting out like
about 180HP and getting 25-35 mpg. If they were engineered/tuned
differently, I bet a 80hp 60mpg car is very possible.

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I live in a small town about an hour away from a large city. I work nearby
so only drive about 10 miles per day on average. We do go on road trips a
lot. I drive a 2004 Kia Sedona minivan, and the wife drives a '99 Olds 88
3800. Up until a year ago, I did have a long commute.

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grappletech wrote:

Thanks. I have a better understanding of your view point now. I don't disagree
with it. I had pictured you as living in NYC and not owning a vehicle. Someday I
would like to work less than 25 miles away - and still make decent money.
Paul.

"grappletech" <noone@removenowhere.biz> wrote in message
news:1159640763_1093@sp6iad.superfeed.net...


You have to remember that engineers and marketers have thought of all of
these things long before this discussion. If it were that easy to get 60 to
80 mpg out of cars and still maintain any degree of usefulness, those cars
would be in production. There are enough people like you who would trade
every other aspect of a car in favor of mileage, to make it worth the
product line.

Do you think there's a reason that those cars don't exist? Think about the
trade-off's in such things as minimum horsepower requirements to be usefull
as more than just a vehicle to run city blocks. Think about the need for
vehicles to actually be able to maintain legal and safe speeds over hills -
long hills like we find commonly in the US and which are not so uncommon in
other parts of the world. Think about durability. Think about comfort.
Not luxury - simple comfort. Think about safety. Crush zones and integral
roll cage type construction is not the complete answer. Nor are offset
front end crash tests. They only reveal part of the story.

I'm not even sure that 60-80 mph is really obtainable in practical terms,
and I really don't think it is in consideration of all other facets of an
automobile.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net